PETE ROTH & BILL BRUFORD: A CHAT ABOUT GROUP CHAT

YOU’VE GOT TO GIVE BOTH BILL BRUFORD AND PETE ROTH A LOT OF CREDIT..

FIRST OF ALL, FOR ONE OF OUR GENERATION’S TOP DRUMMERS TO COME OUT OF RETIREMENT IS AN ACT OF COURAGE. JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT YOU’D “BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT” FOR THE PAST 10+ YEARS, SOMEONE COMES INTO YOUR LIFE TO CONVINCE YOU TO RETURN TO RETURN TO YOUR “OLD LIFE”. 

AS ONE WHO HAS BEEN RETIRED FROM MY PRACTICE AS A CHIROPRACTOR FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS, I SHUDDER AT THE THOUGHT OF GOING BACK. ALL OF THE EXCUSES ARE ALREADY SPINNING IN MY HEAD, LET ALONE ALL OF THE DOUBTS. BUT BRUFORD DID IT, AND HAS DONE IT SUCCESSFULLY, TEAMING UP WITH GUITARIST PETE ROTH AND BASSIST MIKE PRATT FOR RECORDING THE ALBUM/DVD GROUP CHAT, AND TOURING AROUND IN SUPPORT OF IT TO BOOT!

AND THEN WE’VE GOT THE “YOUNGSTER” ROTH HIMSELF, WHO CONVINCED THE MASTER STICK MAN TO COME OUT OF THE WORLD OF RETIRMENT AND ACADEMIA TO, AS THE SONG GOES, “GET BACK TO WHERE HE ONCE BELONGED”. 

AS I WROTE IN MY REVIEW OF THE EXCELLENT ALBUM, ROTH EITHER HAD AS INCENTIVE SOME MAJOR BLACKMAIL ON BRUFORD, OR WAS SIMPLY AN ENERGETIC AND YET HUMBLE ARTIST TO CONVINCE BRUFORD THAT THE TWO  HAD A LOT TO SAY MUSICALLY TOGETHER. 

I’LL LET THE INTERVIEW HERE LET YOU DECIDE WHICH WAY THE JURY SHOULD VOTE, AS BOTH PETE AND BILL GIVE MUSIC FANS A CHANCE TO SEE THE MUSICAL AND PERSONAL MUSINGS OF HOW WE APPROACH OUR CRAFT IN DIFFERENT SEASONS OF OUR LIVES.

(FOR CLARITY SAKE, BILL’S ANSWERS ARE IN ITALICS, AND PETE’S ARE IN REGULAR FONT)

BILL, THIS IS A RETURN FROM AN ELEVEN YEAR RETIREMENT, SO THE LOGICAL QUESTIONS IS FIRST< WHY DID YOU RETIRE, AND WHAT DID YOU GLEAN FROM YOUR RETIREMENT?

BILL-To put it the simplest way, I’d had enough.

At sixty, I thought I’d had a pretty good inning of forty/forty five years, and I’d had enough. It’s hard work being a musician.

For some people, music just pours out of them, they have wonderful managers, and everything is easy; and that is possible. That didn’t happen in my case

Managing a jazz band, Earthworks (which I was at the time), I noticed by 2008 or 09, I had, for another word for it, “burnout”. It’s quite common.

It’s not that I wanted to go bed, exactly; it’s just that I was tired through the tips of my toes, and I sort of  fell out of love of music if you like, I just didn’t want to play anything, didn’t want to hear anything. I had heard too much

But I wanted to stay connected, so I went to a university, and researched the aspects of creativity and the psychology of being a musician

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“For some people, music just pours out of them, they have wonderful managers, and everything is easy; and that is possible. That didn’t happen in my case”

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WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO GET INTO THAT?

BILL-It’s proximity to what was doing. What motivates a musician? What is creativity? Do we care if musicians are creative or not? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Lots of music doesn’t require creativity. In certain forms of British folk music, if you add new harmonies, you’ll be thrown off the bandstand (chuckles)

Creativity was something I was turning an ear to, and so I interviewed a number of expert players in my world of drums and drummers, produced a book and unretired!

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“I sort of  fell out of love of music if you like, I just didn’t want to play anything, didn’t want to hear anything. I had heard too much”

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WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST THING THAT YOU GLEANED FROM YOUR STUDIES AND RETIREMENT?

BILL-I’m not sure if there was anything specific from my studies, other than creativity is rather oversold. It’s one of these words that everybody uses all the time; everyone wants to be “creative”. Every corporation wants “creatives”, whoever they are

It’s a funny old world, so I studied that a bit.

What (retirement) gave me was distance from the performance of music. I think that’s it; performance was the problem.

I didn’t really dislike music; I wanted to be near to it. But the performance, that is to say, the airplanes, the baggage, the signing of cds, the whole thing that goes with it got a bit much

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“Lots of music doesn’t require creativity. In certain forms of British folk music, if you add new harmonies, you’ll be thrown off the bandstand”

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I FELT THAT MYSELF WHEN I RETIRED. I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE, “YOU’LL KNOW WHEN TO RETIRE WHEN THE JOY IS GONE”

BILL-That’s it; I could have said that in the first sentence (laughs)

PETE, WHAT GOT YOU INTERESTED IN PLAYING THE GUITAR?
Pete: I come out of a family of musicians. There was always music about, and the guitar was one of the instruments at home, and  I wanted to play. My dad was a semi professional musicians, and I picked up a lot of things from him

By the time I was eleven, the guitar became my ‘weapon of choice’. I got hooked on it; I love the guitar and everything about it; the way it sits in the case when I open it, how the wood smells. Everything; I love it

PETE, WAS THERE A MUSICIAN OR TEMPLATE THAT YOU ASPIRED TO AT THAT AGE?

PETE-There is always and always will be  a hero, a somebody who has a language or a voice that is particularly appealing

For me, my first voice and first love was Jimi Hendrix. Somebody gave me Live at Winterland, I didn’t know anything about it, but I put it on and loved it. That got extended by three other players, Gary Moore on The Blues Life, then Axis, Bold as Love, and Deep Purple’s Made In Japan. Those were the only three albums I’d listen to

I then got some other albums and explored from there

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“By the time I was eleven, the guitar became my ‘weapon of choice’. I got hooked on it; I love the guitar and everything about it; the way it sits in the case when I open it, how the wood smells. Everything; I love it”

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PETE, WERE YOU FIRST INTRODUCED TO BILL BRUFORD THROUGH A RECORDING, CONCERT OR SOMETHING ELSE?

PETE-I definitely ran into him!

Bill was lecturing at the university where I was studying in Kent, England. Bill happened to be at the faculty, and that’s how we met.

SO YOU HADN”T HEARD HIM?

PETE-I was obviously aware of the bands that he had been in, but I didn’t follow him. If I had met  Bill in the streets, I wouldn’t have been able to point him out as the drummer. I wasn’t watching his music on Youtube, so I didn’t know what he would look like; I’d just listen to his music.

I would have walked right by him, but not Jimi Hendrix *(laughs)

WHAT WAS HE LECTURING ABOUT THAT MADE YOU WANT TO GET TO KNOW HIM BETTER?

PETE-Just the way that he spoke was intriguing, but his way of interrelating the intricacies of culture and music and the interplay with the artist. He spoke extremely well. For me, coming to England from Germany and lapping up everything that I could, I wanted to surround myself around people like Bill and share my ideas with him.

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“I don’t think there’s anyone who  has ever made Bill do something that he didn’t want. I do believe that we had some fun,and I think that this is what we’ve written on our flag, that we’re having fun”

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BILL, WHEN YOU FIRST MET PETE, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST IMPRESSION? WAS IT AS AHUMAN, MUSICIAN OR STUDENT?

I hadn’t heard him musically at all. I just knew him as a lecturer. I had been running the band Earthworks at the time in England, and was looking for a road manager, or someone to set the drums up

This was all,  twenty, twenty five years ago, so if you think Pete’s young now, he was VERY young then!

He played a bit, and was great. We went around the country driving my drum kit  about and playing gigs, and listening to a whole lot of guitar playing.

Pete was reliable and punctual. He could spell. He could eat, and he was clearly the guy that I needed to assist me.

That was great, and we’d listen to a lot of guitar players. Fripp, Holdsworth, David Torn, Ralph Towner, Steve Howe, John Scofield, Julian Lage, Joe Pass. Those kind of names blasting out of the car speakers, and we’d talk a lot about music.

Twenty years passed. I went away and became a Doctor of Music, Philosophy, actually. I came back, unretired

I just had this electric moment where I just had to play again after thirteen years. It was astonishing, really. Nobody was more surprised than I was! I absolutely just wanted to play again

I had a rehearsal kit; I had a drum kit and a place to practice, and was looking around for someone to practice with, and who could I think of? And I remembered Pete, who was only ten miles away

I thought I’d give this guy a call and see if he was any good. In the interim he had really grown up on the guitar, he had turned into  a mature guitar player with a couple of cds under his belt

I thought we’d have a rehearsal band, , and I said to him “do you know any bass players?” and he said “yeah, there’s a guy Mike Pratt who’s p retty good”. So we started with him on electric and upright; he plays both. And pretty soon, we were kind of taking off

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“I just had this electric moment where I just had to play again after thirteen years. It was astonishing, really. Nobody was more surprised than I was! I absolutely just wanted to play again”

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BILL, WHEN YOU MAKE A DECISION TO PUT TOGETHER A BAND, IS THE DECISION MORE MUSICAL OR PERSONAL IN TERMS OF CAPATABILITY?

Bill-Good Question

A lot goes into that decision.

If you came up to me and asked “Do you want to be in a band?”, I’ve got to think for a minute

It’s like getting married. Tt’s extremely intense; it will be intense. And there’s a kind of minimum run of three to four years in order to even get a band started these days. It’s going to take you a little while

You have to do a lot of touring, and we’ve done that, You have to find your repertoire pretty   quickly

And then there are a million questions..

Do you want to do instrumental music? Vocal music? Are you going to do original music? In 2026?!?!? You must be mad!! That’s insane! Why would you want to do that?

Who’s going to pay for it? Do you have a record company? It gets very complicated.

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“It’s like getting married. Tt’s extremely intense; it will be intense. And there’s a kind of minimum run of three to four years in order to even get a band started these days. It’s going to take you a little while”

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PETE, DID YOU SEE BEING IN BILL’S BAND BECAUSE YOU LIKED HIM, OR BECAUSE BEING WITH HIM WOULD LOOK GOOD ON YOUR CURRICULUM VITAE? WAS IT BRAGGING RIGHTS, OR DID YOU LIKE THE GUY

Pete laughs-I think I’m off the hook on that one in a lovely way

We started out making a conscious decision NOT to gig. Not to be out there. Nobody talked about it. I wasn’t going around saying “Hey guys! I’ve got this thing with Bill Bruford”  and trying to get musical cudos. It wasn’t that at all

We just met for quite some time and enjoyed being like twelve year old school kids in a rehearsal room just making music for the sake of music, It was the only time that I experienced the music  in a way that was  in such an honest and safe space, where you could just explore music together in a non selfish  way. There was no other thought than “How can we make this better; how can we explore things together?”

That’s how it started. Then eight months down the road, we said, “Why don’t we go down the road to the Isle of Wite, find somewhere to play in  a small room and just have a bit of fun? Just to see what it feels like?”

Even then, it was not advertised with Bill on drums.

So, I’ve been with Bill on all of those steps, and I’ve been the bandleader before. But for all of those steps there’s a different kind of pressure on all of those different elements; the music, the organizing, the personal stuff, there’s your family, and you have to leave certain things behind when you start something new as well

There are all of these pressure points that have to fall into place. As well as the different personalities -and I hope that you’re not going to prove me wrong, but I think that we do get along quite well! (chuckles)

BILL: We’re hanging in there (laughs)

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“We just met for quite some time and enjoyed being like twelve year old school kids in a rehearsal room just making music for the sake of music, It was the only time that I experienced the music  in a way that was  in such an honest and safe space, where you could just explore music together in a non selfish  way. There was no other thought than “How can we make this better; how can we explore things together?”

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PETE, WAS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU SAID TO BILL THAT YOU THINK WAS THE “HOOK” TO GET HIM OUT OF RETIRMENT?

Pete: Have you met Bill? (laughs) I don’t think there’s anyone who  has ever made Bill do something that he didn’t want. I do believe that we had some fun,and I think that this is what we’ve written on our flag, that we’re having fun.

BILL, SO, WHAT WAS YOUR EPIPHANY TO GET OUR OF RETIREMENT AFTER SUCH A LONG TIME? TO RETURN ESPECIALLY AS WE GET OLDER, TAKES A LOT OF PHYSICAL CONDITIONING FOR YOUR BACK, NECK AND WRISTS, ETC.

BILL-yes, you have to build yourself back up.

What can I say? It was an “electric” kind of feeling that I just got

I had this drum kit in my studio, my study place, and for 13 years odd it was set up in my room. I’d walk past it every morning and say “good morning” and “hello” to it, and at  night time, I’d switch out the lights and say “good night”. I never played it; never even tapped on it.

I had no desire, whatsoever.

But quite rapidly I had-you know how they sometimes say when something bad is going to happen, sometimes 7 or three things happen in a row-the plane is low on petrol, there’s ice on the ground and the stewardess is talking, so the plane goes down…

I think that the opposite thing also happens…The reverse can happen.

Several things can happen at the same time without you really creating them, but you’re aware of them all happening. And it was beyond refusal; it was impossible for me not to play

Heck, I really didn’t want that! Who needs 3-4 hours of practice a day in order to get my chops back and to  think about music! It’s a lot of work, you know.

So, I was thinking, “Gee, it’s great to be back, but it sure is work!”

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“I had this drum kit in my studio, my study place, and for 13 years odd it was set up in my room. I’d walk past it every morning and say “good morning” and “hello” to it, and at  night time, I’d switch out the lights and say “good night”. I never played it; never even tapped on it.”

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BILL, HOW DID YOUR WIFE RESPOND?

BILL: My wife thought that I was retired! So, it’s funny how these things happen.

Pete didn’t  lure me into being in a band, that’s impossible.

I allowed myself to be swayed into the idea that we should do gigs.

HOW DID YOU SELL YOUR RETURNING TO WORK TO YOUR WIFE?

BILL:I told her that being a musician would make me  happy. She bought it.

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I allowed myself to be swayed into the idea that we should do gigs…Who needs 3-4 hours of practice a day in order to get my chops back and to  think about music! It’s a lot of work, you know.

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BILL, WHAT WAS THE HARDEST THING TO BRING BACK? THE TIMING? ENDURANCE? WHAT DID YOU DO TO GET BACK IN SHAPE?

BILL: I’m reasonably athletic; I do a fair bit of exercises and so forth.

It’s funny; when I got back, I could remember quite difficult parts of the language of drums, but had forgotten other things. This would be a good study for the cognitive people-older guys having a 13 year break, and instantly cutting straight back cutting back in, with the obvious question being “what have you lost?” or maybe you’ve gained something!

And indeed, I had shed a skin of drumming the way I used to be, and I’ve got a new skin now, with the way I now am. I’ve done that by some pretty serious practice

What was initially was poor was fluidity; joining phrases together. When I’m speaking to you, I feel I’ve got a fairly fluid tone and voice, with a beginning, middle and end, and the idea is there.

When I returned to start drumming, I could play something really well, but it would get difficult, and (stop/start the conversation)..I … might.. not join… in … quite…..fluidlytothenextidea which as todowith joining….to.. the…next…ideaquickly.

So, the music was a little lumpy. That was my only problem

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“I had shed a skin of drumming the way I used to be, and I’ve got a new skin now, with the way I now am. I’ve done that by some pretty serious practice”

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AND YOU FEEL IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE 13 YEAR GAP

Yes; you have to l earn to speak the language fluently.…as much as you possibly can, and I do that with Pete, of course.

YOU SEE SO MANY OF THESE OLDER DRUMMERS LIKE ROY MCCURDY, JIMMY COBB, ROY HAYNES AND CHICO HAMILTON ARE ABLE TO KEEP THE BEAT GOING INTO THEIR 90S

Bill: It’s astonishing. My mother used to say, “Bill, you’re going to be a drummer? That’s great! What are you going to do when you’re twenty?” (laughs)

Then, ten years would pass and she’d ask “What are you going to do when you’re thirty? Or forty?”

Obviously, she eventually died of course, and I’m still playing,

I’m now 77, and a lot of people think that’s ancient.

I remember talking to Roy Haynes about this, and he said “Ah, I don’t let any of that bother me.” That’s a great sentence.

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“My mother used to say, “Bill, you’re going to be a drummer? That’s great! What are you going to do when you’re twenty?”

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PETE, DID YOU FEEL INTIMIDATED THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU ACTUALLY STEPPED IN TO THE MUSIC WITH BILL? DID IT FEEL “MAKE OR BREAK” LIKE A BAPTISM BY FIRE, OR DID YOU FEEL YOU COULD HANDLE IT?

PETE: I didn’t really think much about what I had let myself into! (laughs)

I didn’t have the thought of one or the other; I did feel the undeniable weight of Bill’s career and his achievements.

What I’ve learned is Bill’s incredible ability to shape music from a bird’s eye view, not just a “what am I going to do here” in terms of what note needs to be played, but to also look at the bigger picture of what’s happening with the sound, what’s happening in the general direction of the music. What’s happening to the mood; what’s happening with the timbre. That deeper and further thinking

That really allowed me to grow a lot, and I’m growing as we speak.

I’m still new to all of this, and as we do something, there’s a challenge and we’ll stand in front of it and  then look at it and very often and kindly Bill will be extremely generous and help me master it together.

BILL:for a lot of drummers, the music is only of interest to the drummer as far as the cymbals. Beyond the cymbals, they don’t care what is beyond them. The music stops with them.

But for me,  my interests start beyond the cymbals.

Yes, I’m there; yes I’m playing some notes. But are they the right notes, and what are they doing to everybody else? That’s my interest; that’s when I get excited

It’s straightforward to me, but not everybody thinks like that

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“for a lot of drummers, the music is only of interest to the drummer as far as the cymbals. Beyond the cymbals, they don’t care what is beyond them. The music stops with them”

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PETE, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE PLAYING WITH BILL BEFORE YOU FELT LIKE “I’M IN”?

PETE: I’m not sure, as it was such a dynamic thing

I think that as a band, it took a little while to be as unique as we are right now

I brought my language; I speak this way. Mike brought his language, Bill brought his, and after awhile we’d realize that if all of us borrow from each other, there’s a lot more mileage. But, it took a little while for all of us to listen to each other and to learn each other’s language and to go into the next part of the journey.

Musically, there was always a common ground right from the start. We all love jazz; that’s all of our number one common ground, where we first pushed off from. But we also all of rock and funk and classical, so we all just fell in with each other.

THERE IS A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A DRUMMER AND BASSIST. WHAT WAS YOUR CRITERIA FOR FINDING THE RIGHT BASSIST FOR BILL?

PETE-The whole chat lasted about four seconds, with Bill asking “Do you know a bass player, ideally upright?”

I told him that I knew someone who I’d been touring with someone I’d known for 15 years with this lovely guy, Mike Pratt. He’s versatile, he’s in the session scene and very busy. We’d just been touring for two years with another project, and he just came along.

Most importantly, Mike is the right TYPE of guy. He’s a lovely, warm and very elegant player that’s open to invention and spontaneity. All of this thing about being very real and keeping your ego out at the door and picking it back up on the way out. All of that.

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“As any professional musician will tell you, it is the greatest insult that you can pay your colleagues to keep them waiting”

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BILL, WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A BASS PLAYER, AND DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE?

BILL: First of all, it’s important that he turns up on time

The first  bass player that I played with for any length of time at all was Chris Squire, from  YES, who was notorious for keeping the entire ensemble waiting.

As any professional musician will tell you, it is the greatest insult that you can pay your colleagues to keep them waiting. Not once a day, because band musicians can’t meet up and do something four to five times a day. And to do that consistently for a year or two…it actually became impossible for me to play with them as a result of that.

I tell you that because it can be bad.

So, Mike is a lovely guy and comes with a lot of experience and can play lots of music. I’m very happy in the sense that I like working with people, or can I say “better” people.

I mean, if Jaco Pastorius walked in the door, would we accept  him? I don’t know. Mike’s playing is full; what’s the point of having another guy? We’re working on a trio where we’re trying to get things to interlock, and just to import another guy, and I don’t care if it’s Jaco Pastorius or not, it means that you’ve got to start over again.

So I’m very happy with the musicians that are in the room. I’ll do my best to get the best out of everybody in the room.

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if Jaco Pastorius walked in the door, would we accept  him? I don’t know. Mike’s playing is full; what’s the point of having another guy? We’re working on a trio where we’re trying to get things to interlock, and just to import another guy, and I don’t care if it’s Jaco Pastorius or not, it means that you’ve got to start over again

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ONCE THEY SHOW UP ON TIME, IS THERE ANYTHING YOU LOOK FOR AND IS THERE A PET PEEVE?

BILL: A pet peeve? I suppose too many notes, and that’s primarily for myself (chuckles)

And something that I really like that we’re encouraging a lot in Mike is that he’s the second voice in the band.

He has a lovely, melodic lookout of sound with the bass, with not too many notes, which is a very beautiful thing. You hear it two or three times on our new album. There’s a tune called “Looking Forward to Looking  Back”, where the center section is essentially a bass lead. It’s not really a bass solo where he’s on his own, it’s a lead voice, which gives the other lead voice (Pete) a rest in the ears of the listener.

He also plays like that in “Original Sin”, and it’s a key voice that he’s got, and any player in the Pete Roth Trio would need to have that, because a trio demands a minute or two away from the lead instrument, being here the guitar.

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“a trio demands a minute or two away from the lead instrument, being here the guitar”

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IT SEEMS THAT THE SONGS HAVE TWO DIFFERENT FEELS. ARE SOME COMPOSED BEFOREHAND, AND ARE SOME RESULTS OF ORGANIC JAMS?

PETE-You’re 100% informed there.

Some, like “Original Sin” were definite compositions, and was from an earlier release of mine, Extremities. “Dancing With Grace” was a ballad for my daughter, and is our most straightforward kind of a jazz standard. It has a head, we have a solo, based on the changes of the main head, and then we play the head on the way out in the jazz tradition

BILL-The opposite extreme to that would be something like the “Improvisation on the Largo from Dvorak’s Symphony #9” where it’s essentially five minutes of improvising towards…where are we going? We know which part of Dvorak we’re going to play at the end, the “Largo”, and everything preceding  that is leading you towards that, even though the audience doesn’t know what it’s being led towards; we know. That’s what is giving us our melodic and melodic lone star. We know where we’re going, and we’re trying to do it elegantly for five to six minutes and then arrive at Dvorak.

That would be the exact opposite and the  other extreme on how things went on the album

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“We know where we’re going, and we’re trying to do it elegantly for five to six minutes and then arrive at Dvorak”

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PETE, IN A TRIO SETTING, WHO DO YOU LOCK IN WITH?

PETE: This is always a three-way conversations

The tunes take different shapes depending on who we are when we step into that room that particular **day, depending on what we allow musically to happen, but it’s always based on interplay. We feed off each other very much.

WHEN YOU HEARD THE MUSIC ON THE ALBUM PLAYED BACK FOR THE FIRST TIME, WHAT WERE YOUR INITIAL THOUGHTS?

BILL: (chuckles) I thought, yes, there were some good ideas there, and some bits that I’m not so thrilled by regarding my own performance. But my performance is my own private business, I think.

I told Pete one time, “This sounded awful”, and he said, “What was awful? You sound great to me!”

The way that we listen to music, and my particular way of listening to music is neither here nor there in the discussion of whether the music is any good or not.

I’m as thrill that we got as far as we got. And, I think it’s pretty good!

It was a “live” recording, taken over several nights of playing in Europe. It was a lovely way to go. No one wants to sit around in a studio doing “Take Number 58”. It’s also very expensive

The last album that I did in a studio was The Sound Of Surprise with my Earthworks band back in 2007.I haven’t been in a recording studio in that sense for an awfully long timeD

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“creativity is rather oversold. It’s one of these words that everybody uses all the time; everyone wants to be “creative”.

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PETE,  YOUR THOUGHTS

Pete-Similar to Bill.

We obviously played it a lot, and then we had a selection of tunes in which we listened to from different nights, where we were coming in to close in on the selection of two or three songs of which we’d like for making the album. Some of them were from only one recording, which was due to the fact that it was the only one that had no glitches in the recording. More of the technical side of it due to the mics, and that limited the choice, as it was set up for a live mix and not a recording.

When we listened to it, Bill would point out something that was very interesting, these bits that for me are my favorite bits on the album. Bill says “That was done for me”…it’s that personal. And I’m sure it’s vice versa

I’ve got to say that I love fact that we’ve done a snapshot of what we’re doing, because it’s so improvised; It’s like a painting.

That’s what we did; it’s like a live painting, and we watch it, and this is what it is

It’s a very honest and real thing to do

In a world now with technology where you can manipulate anything to absolute perfection, and in a world where people expect that, with everything to be polished to the absolute maximum, there’s a certain honesty that’s missing in humanity.

Real people  have different sides to them, they’re not always so polished, and they can come off as a little bit sterile

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“it’s like a live painting, and we watch it, and this is what it is…and in a world where people expect that, with everything to be polished to the absolute maximum, there’s a certain honesty that’s missing in humanity.”

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IT’S THE SAME WITH  PHOTOGRAPHY. THERE’S SO MUCH RETOUCHING NOWADAYS THAT YOU WONDER, “WHERE’S THE PICTURE”?

BILL: That’s right about the music, too.  The error tells us as much about the man as the beautiful series of notes.

I remember as a kid hearing Tony Williams clicking his sticks as he went around the drum set, thinking “Why do they allow that clicking sound?” and then I realized that it’s him! It’s life! It’s stuff!

IT’S LIKE TELLING ERROL GARNER TO STOP GRUNTING!

Pete: Yeah, try that!

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“The error tells us as much about the man as the beautiful series of notes”

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WHAT ARE THE SIZES OF THE CROWDS THAT YOU’RE PLAYING IN FRONT OF?

BILL: Small, on the whole, which we rather like. However, we just got back from doing some jazz festivals in Europe, and of course jazz festivals can have you play in front of thousands.

We’re just about to go touring in Germany, playing in the usual jazz clubs. You know, the dark, gloomy places where this stuff happens.

We like that; we can change it nightly. We can wait until we see the whites of your eyes. I can see what you’re enjoying and hating, when you’re bored and not bored.

I like that; I’m a great interactor, not only with the other musicians, but with the audience as well. I can see how they’re getting on with this, and whether they hate it or not.

Jazz is lovely for that, isn’t it?

We’re keen to explain the music and the band to as many people as we can.

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“We’re just about to go touring in Germany, playing in the usual jazz clubs. You know, the dark, gloomy places where this stuff happens...We like that; we can change it nightly. We can wait until we see the whites of your eyes. I can see what you’re enjoying and hating, when you’re bored and not bored”

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HOW CAN YOU TELL WHETHER YOU”RE CONNECTING WITH THE AUDIENCE OR NOT

PETE-We’ve done both (chuckles), so we know what both feels like.

BILL-You’re thinking about Swanage, aren’t you?

PETE-(laughs) I was thinking about Swanage

BILL-there has been the odd gig. There was a gig in a s mall theater on the south coast of England, populated with a number of elderly ladies on pension, and I’m not sure if our world of jazz was their world of jazz.

PETE-we are pretty rowdy; we’re on the punk side of jazz!

We had just come back from Canada, with 400 people jumping up and down on their chairs, having a ball. We knew we connected.

And then we get to Swanage, within the first two notes I felt like I was offending the people in the front row. They were hanging on for dear life to their chairs like an airplane that’s about to crash! That was fun (laughs)

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“we are pretty rowdy; we’re on the punk side of jazz!”

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ARE YOU GOING TO TOUR IN AMERICA?

PETE: No, we’ve been asked this a few times.

It’s not in the immediate plans. It has to do with the fact that we’re a small outfit, and can’t really afford the high prices and risks that come with the traveling,. IT’s very taxing in the circumstances. It has nothing to do with the people there; we love them

BILL-It has a lot to do with the president and immigration service. It’s very expensive to get in.

But here’s the thing: During the time of the process of applying for the visa, somebody somewhere can say “this person is unacceptable to come into the country”

Now, at that point, you can be several thousand dollars into the process. And that’s per individual; so it’s difficult.

SINCE YOU’VE BEEN TOGETHER, HAVE ANY CRIMSON ALUMNI LIKE THE GUYS FROM STICK MEN OR BEAT ASKED YOU TO JOIN TOGETHER WITH THEM?

BILL-We have been on the same bill with people like that; we played with Stick Men in Poland. Playing with them as a sextet or something is a possibility, but you just have to get everyone’s schedules right

If you think it’s hard getting three people in a room, try getting six people in a room! (chuckles) Plus their booking agents to make such things happen. It’s possible and not a bad idea

Our enjoyment of music is very similar. We make slightly different noises; we go in a variety of different ways, but it would be lovely.

I WAS ASKING THIS BECAUSE I CAN’T CONCEIVE OF YOU GOING BACK TO A BAND WITH ONE OR TWO OTHER DRUMMERS

BILL: My mentality is that it doesn’t attract me (playing with another drummer) laughs

I’m not sure if a King Crimson double trio is what you’re edging towards, if that was a great success. I think that it was a brave and bold step, but I don’t think that it was a great success, even though we spent a lot of time and work on the drums. And, I thought that the drums were really nice.

But apart from that, we’re still an infant band and working on our own thing here.

YOU INCLUDE A DVD OF THE SESSION. WHY DID YOU GUYS WANT IT TO BE FILMED?

PETE:First and foremost, it’s another sign that the music is real

You have the actual recording, and you can see us doing it at the same time. You need to see the spontaneity, seeing us not just playing it, but also interacting.

This is why I think that we’re a great “live” band to see, because there is just so much going on between the musicians. It’s not like we’re on different sides of the stage where we can hardly see each other, with their heads down and playing. We’re communicating out with the audience; we’re communicating sideways to each other.
We’ve in a V shape, so I’m in the middle, with drums on the left and Mike to my right. We’re in constant eye contact visually and also connected musically. That’s a beautiful thing, and I think that is what makes putting in the visual recording worthwhile. This brings the audience to the next level, to see the depth that goes beyond just the notes being played

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“(The video) brings the audience to the next level, to see the depth that goes beyond just the notes being played”

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PETE, WHEN DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU COULD SAY TO YOURSELF “I HAVE MY OWN SOUND AND STYLE”?

PETE-I’ll tell you when I’ve found it (chuckles)

It’s a constant search and it evolves all of the time, because my ears, my mind, the people that I play with make me constantly evove

I’m sure it’s the same with the sax,  as you might hear a lot of Lester Young, but then a bit of ***Branford Marsalis or Brecker and you veer off into a different direction and you get the Lester silky softness with the Brecker hard edginess, and that is you at that moment until someone else walks in and says ‘You need a bit of this, too”.

This is the beautiful thing about your own language. The older you get, the deeper is your knowledge of things and therefore the more precise you can express yourself . This is true for me

At 25, I probably thought that I was more certain about having found something. Now, here I am at my age and still growing.

ARE YOU STILL GOING THROUGH A  “GEAR PHASE”?

I’m constantly changing; I’ve always loved looking for new sounds, because part of what we do is sound-scaping, not just “what chord are we playing” or “what is the melody goes on top of it”. That’s one of the major things that I’ve developed with this band, something I haven’t done before

I was a much more straight-ahead player, but now it’s more sound-scaping; playing beyond the note just beyond just playing harmony.

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“I’m constantly changing; I’ve always loved looking for new sounds, because part of what we do is sound-scaping, not just “what chord are we playing” or “what is the melody goes on top of it”.

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BILL, WHEN DID YOU THINK YOU HAD YOUR” BRUFORD SOUND”?

BILL: It’s a lifetime work; it’s what a musician does

It’s what you do; you spend your life looking for a sound

It’s partly related to your style; it’s not quite separate, really.

A lot of people say that I have a certain snare drum sound; I really don’t understand that, because I’ve played dozens of snare drums. I play different drums all of the time.

I think that what people hear is that I tend to put the accent in a relatively unusual place. That’s about all.

In other words, if something smells a bit odd in the drumming, it’s probably Bruford playing the drumming. (chuckles)

I like that; I’m perfectly okay with that. It’s got a swing, of course, it’s got a groove at the same time.
I think that we’ve hit some good grooves on the album

The title cut of the album has a fun groove at the front.(chuckles)

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“It’s a lifetime work; it’s what a musician does … you spend your life looking for a sound”

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IS THERE A BOOK THAT YOU THINK EVERYONE SHOULD READ?

BILL: I would never presume to think such a thing at all, that “everyone should read”.

The book I think everyone should read is called The Death of the Artist by William Deresiewicz. It’s a frightening book about how difficult it is to be an artist in the post-digital world

Especially with AI.

You know, every musician has his own recording studio; every writer has to be his own publisher

The amount of work outside of music  that we have to do is really absurd.

PETE-For me, it’s something different and  not quite as relevant as this is Hilary Mantel’s Trilogy: Wolf Hall, Bringing Up The Bodies and The Mirror and The Light. It’s basically a biography on Thomas Cromwell, with Henry VIII from Cromwell’s perspective, with his upbringing, all the way up to 1540, getting executed, where he famously gives his purple coat to the executioner as a last bit of defiance.

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“I’m actually quite happy to wake up and see that we’re still able to make some music”

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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?

PETE-Being with my family and playing music. If someone builds a fence around me, I’ll be perfectly happy with my family and my guitar. I don’t look for much.

BILL; Same thing; I’ve got grandkids, so they give me a lot of joy

ANY FUTURE GOALS?

BILL-We’re going down a path, and are crawling all the way down it. The nearest goal is our German tour

888PETE-Same thing; one step at a time. After COVID I stopped making ten-year plans. I’m actually quite happy to wake up and see that we’re still able to make some music. We have a rehearsal tomorrow, and I’m looking forward to it I love the idea of coming up with a few bars, writing it on a piece of paper for the band.

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“We’re going down a path, and are crawling all the way down it”

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WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO HEAR AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?

PETE-I didn’t know I looked that ill! (laughs) You hope that the peoples’ lives that you touch you didn’t make too miserable. But I don’t presume that I’m the guy that has done more than somebody else. We all play a part in a much bigger game

BILL:“He contributed”. I like the idea that musicians have to give something

You don’t just get paid; you’ve got to give something for it; what are you going to contribute to this thing called music?

Is it the funny way that you play the cymbals? A great song that you’ve written? What are you contributing?

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“I like the idea that musicians have to give something”

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AS BRUFORD AND ROTH HAVE DEMONSTRATED, OUR CAREERS AND LIVES TAKE PATHS THAT WE ARE SOMETIMES SURPRISING TO US. WE THINK WE’VE REACHED OUR DESTINATION, ONLY TO FIND THAT GOD HAS OTHER PLANS FOR US, AND THAT COMMUNICATION CAN COME THROUGH VARIOUS WAYS AS WELL AS VARIOUS PEOPLE. BILL BRUFORD’S CAREER AND LIFE HAS TAKEN AN NEW PATH, THANKS TO THE MUSICALITY AND ENTHUSIASM OF PETE ROTH. MEANWHILE, ROTH’S TRAJECTORY HAS CHANGED SINCE BEING TAKEN UNDER THE MUSICAL WING OF THE GANDALFIAN DRUMMER.

ISN’T THIS THE GLORY OF MUSIC, AS WELL AS LIFE? SOMETIMES WE FOLLOW A PATH THAT IS DIRECT AND STRAIGHT, BUT AS BRUFORD AND ROTH SHOW, THE PATH CAN ALSO BE, DARE WE SAY, ROUNDABOUT? 

CHECK OUT THIS FANTASTIC RELEASE BY ROTH’S T RIO AND SEE HOW PERSONAL AND MUSICAL GENERATIONS CAN CREATE MUSIC FOR THE AGES.